Know What I Know

 BBS: Stonehenge BBS
Date: 05-28-93 (17:36)             Number: 46
From: SHLOMOH SHERMAN              Refer#: NONE
  To: EDWIN SVIGALS                Recvd: NO  
Subj: Know What I Know             Conf: (46) MINICHAT  
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Edwin,

I continue to read Bishop Spong's book with interest. I do not know whether it is lifting me up to heaven or casting me down to the neither world. As I read, I am reminded of the way fundamentalists abdicate all reason in the face of reality, and specifically how I (as a one time fundamenatlist) did the same. And what have I given up?

For haven't we said to one another that one of the things that binds us as former fundamentalists is that we wish to know what we know, see what we see, feel what we feel, realize what we realize?

Remember that I told you how one day, when Zviah was a little girl, she came home from yeshivah and said to Pamela and me that she had learned in school that day that a person who is on route to perform a MITSVAH can not come to any harm; does not the Tradition say that no harm befalls him who is engaged in the performance of a MITSVAH?

A story from the GEMARAH:

It happend one day that Rabbi Elisha ben Abuya was walking thru the City
with his disciple, Rabbi Meir. (Now Elisha ben Abuya was one of the GEDOLEI
HA-DOR, one of the Great Ones of his generation).

So they passed by a house where a father was telling his son to retrieve
eggs from a bird's nest. Now the nest had been built on the roof of the
house, and the father had placed a ladder against the house and asked the
little boy to climb up and retrieve the eggs, reminding him to drive away
the mother bird before taking the eggs.

Said Elisha ben Abuya to Meir, "See Meir, this child is about to perform
two MITSVOT, honoring his father, and driving away the mother bird before
taking the eggs. Does not the TORAH teach us that only for these two
MITSVOT, a person will attain to long life?"

Honour thy father and thy mother : that thy days may be lo ng upon the land
which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
                       Exodus 20:12

If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on
the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting
upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the
young: But thou shalt in any wise let the dam go, and take the young to
thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy
days.
                       Deuteronomy 22:6-7

"This boy shall live to see length of days", he concluded.
They watched as the little boy ascended the ladder. As he reached the top
of the ladder and stretched forth his hand to shoo away the mother bird,
the ladder began to shake. The boy tried to steady himself but the ladder
teetered, and then fell backward. The little boy fell to his death.
As all looked on in horror, Elisha ben Abuya ripped his clothing and
screamed out, "THERE IS NO JUSTICE AND THERE IS NO JUDGE!", and immediately
he became an APIKORES.
---
 þ OLX 2.1 TD þ "What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?"
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 BBS: Stonehenge BBS
Date: 06-03-93 (17:27)             Number: 46
From: SHLOMOH SHERMAN              Refer#: NONE
  To: EDWIN SVIGALS                 Recvd: NO  
Subj: more about ACHER               Conf: (46) MINICHAT  
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Edwin

The most difficult part about trying to bring about a synthesis is to know what to maintain and what to modify and what to reject.

A story from the GEMARAH:

After Elisha ben Abuya apostasized, his former disciple, Rabbi Meir,
continued to speak to him and even to LEARN from him. Rabbi Meir's
collegues said to him, "Meir, why do you continue to associate with the
APIKORES? Do you not know that he has been placed in CHEREM
(excommunication)?"  He answered them, "Yes I know. But I also remember
that he once was a GADOL HA-DOR. He has much TORAH and he also knows Greek
philosophy, and there is much to learn from him. And I still love him."
They asked him, "Are you not afraid that you will become tainted with his
APIKORSUT?"  He replied to them, "I suck out the juice and I spit out the
pits."

In an earlier age, when Jews were less afraid of honesty, stories about Elisha ben Abuya could find their way into the Tradition where all could hear and reflect upon them.

If the GEMARAH were written TODAY, do you think this story would be included in it?

---
 þ OLX 2.1 TD þ We must get together - - a year from Shavuos!
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 BBS: Stonehenge BBS
Date: 06-09-93 (23:41)             Number: 12
From: SHLOMOH SHERMAN              Refer#: 46
  To: EDWIN SVIGALS                 Recvd: NO  
Subj: 4 men in a garden              Conf: (12) RELIGION  
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Edwin

I think that placing too much reliance on literalness of a received tradition can be destructive to the individual when a crisis develops in his life, brought about by the clash between what he has come to believe and the unpleasant realities of life.

A story from the GEMARAH:

It happened one day that four men entered the Garden called PARDES
(Paradise); Rabbi ben Azaria, Rabbi ben Zoma, Elisha ben Abuya, and
Rabbi Akiva.

Rabbi Akiva said to them, "When we come to the Place of the Pure Marble,
do not stare at the marble and do not cry out 'Water! Water!'".

So they walked on their way in the Garden. Now the day was hot and dry, and
the path was long, and as they walked, the sun beat down upon them so that
they became very thirsty. They continued on their destination which was the
Place of the Pure Marble but it still was a considerable distance off. So
they went on the way and their thirst became extremely unbearable till they
felt their throats ache and they felt that they would go mad with dryness.
Still they continued on their way while the sun beat down upon them and
their thirst increased and became excrutiating.

Finally they came to the Place of the Pure Marble.

Ben Azaria stared at the marble and cried out, "Water! Water!", and at once
he expired.

Ben Zoma stared at the marble and cried out, "Water! Water!", and at once
he went insane.

Elisha ben Abuya pointed to the marble and sneered, "This is not water",
and at once he apostacized.

Only Rabbi Akiva averted his eyes from the marble, and he alone left the
Garden safe and sound.

---
 þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Wait for me, Wait for me, I know the light is fading fast
===========================================================================
 BBS: Stonehenge BBS
Date: 06-10-93 (19:12)             Number: 46
From: SHLOMOH SHERMAN              Refer#: 26367
  To: SCOTT MCMEEKAN                Recvd: NO  
Subj: 4 men in a garden              Conf: (46) MINICHAT  
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SM>>SS>A story from the GEMARAH:

SM>>SS>It happened one day that four men entered the Garden called PARDES
SM>>SS>(Paradise); Rabbi ben Azaria, Rabbi ben Zoma, Elisha ben Abuya, and
SM>>SS>Rabbi Akiva.
SM>>SS>Rabbi Akiva said to them, "When we come to the Place of the Pure Marble,
SM>>SS>do not stare at the marble and do not cry out 'Water! Water!'".
SM>>SS>Elisha ben Abuya pointed to the marble and sneered, "This is not water",
SM>>SS>and at once he apostacized.

SM>>SS>Only Rabbi Akiva averted his eyes from the marble, and he alone left the
SM>>SS>Garden safe and sound.

SM>>  Brother, you didn't expound on what you think this means, and I
SM>>  guess I'm too stupid to figure it out!

SM>>  Can you tell me how this applies to your prelude?

PARDES is mysticism, more properly, Jewish religious mysticism, which purports to show thye real hidden realities behind what the scriptures teach.

These 4 men attempted the plumb the innser secrets of G-d's universe which, they say, only a man with maturity may attempt - after he has reached his 40 birthday and has learned much TORAH, MISHNAH, and GEMARAH. Then he may attempt KABALLAH.

The Place of the Pure Marble is THE place of the ULTIMATE HIDDEN SECRET MEANINGS OF THE CREATION AS REVEALED IN THE MANIPULATION OF THE WORDS AND LETTERS OF THE TORAH. The Marble is the ULTIMATE TORAH - FULLY REVEALED IN ALL ITS MANIFOLD MEANINGS AND REVELATIONS.

Ben Azaria attempted to find out all of "G-d's secrets" by some sort of physical means (we dont know how - maybe severe fasting and afflictions of the body) and he died in the attempt.

Ben Zoma attempted to find out by some sort of mental contortions and delving into logical-illogical thinking. He went insane in the attempt.

ACHER (Elisha ben Abuya) watched these great religious figures attempt to do what few may do and saw them perish in the attempt. He became completely disillusioned with "religion" when he saw the great ones crushed under the burden of the search. Suddenly he saw great injustices everywhere and was no longer able to believe in a G-d who really cared about people.

Rabbi Akiva approached the project with great caution and humility, telling himself that men far greater than he had failed to fathom the secret of G-d's ultimate truths. He cautioned his collegues to be very carefull in their mystical endeavors. All 4 of them sought to quench the thirst of their ignorance. Rabbi Akiva saw them drifting dangerously closer and closer to the brink and told them not to become so overzealous that they would mistake fantasies for ultimate realities (marble for water). When he saw that they ignored his advice to their obviously approaching doom, he withdrew from them and their "project" to the safety of what G-d had revealed to man openly by His word.

Sometimes people are so intent to point to something, be it a verse or a tradition, and say, aha! - this is truth! Then later on, they find themselves crushed by the reality that is - not what they thought. Some times we cannot fathom the "truth", even verses and traditions fail them.

I hope this has been of help to you.

Thank you very much for respond to my original post. Usually people dont respond and I think the reason is that they dont know what to say. And it leaves me feeling sort of - well - I posted these "wonderfull messages" so why no response. But maybe the messages  are not so great and I should not take myself so seriously  [bg]. Serenity bro, serenity. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change ....