To: SonyaL70@aol.com
Re: ROSH HASHANNAH study
Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:35 PM
Hi Tikvah:
I understand your take on this and it's also mine.
But Jerald sent me a second note in which he says. among other things,
"But what makes a Jew a Jew? Is it not his or her belief in Hashem ? Don't you believe that belief has to be contingent upon something?"
So I need to give him an answer which will make him stop and pause to think about my way of being Jewish.
Shlomoh
From: "Shlomoh Sherman" <kingsolnew@yahoo.com>
To: "Jerald Gould"
Rosh HaShannah studies
Monday, August 25, 2008 9:42 PM
Hello Jerald and thanks for having taken the time to respond to me again.
I'll try to now respond to the points you made in your email.
You first say that the Commandments unite us as Jews and that they have been a major contribution to society as a whole.
I take it you mean Christian society or those secular societies which have grown out of premodern Christian worldviews
and what are commonly called "Christian values".
I'll deal with the second axiom in your sentence because I want to get it out of the way since it is merely tangential to the main topic of our dialog.
Society, Western society, Christian or secular, has gained very little from the commandments in the TORAH simply because the founder of the Christian religion told his followers that since they were not Jews, they ought not to try to act like Jews. In effect, he told his gentile followers that they were not under the Law [TORAH] and that anyway the Law was now null and void.
In fact he scolded them if they even tried to follow the TORAH. You can read all about it in both Galatians and 2 Corinthians. When he says that "if you are circumcised, Christ profits you nothing", he means if you follow the commandments of the now nullified TORAH, you will not be saved.
In fact, the TORAH is not necessary for non-Jewish society since according to Romans 2:15 "They show that what the TORAH requires is written in their hearts."
And we are not talking necessarily about ritual commandments. Whereas in the TORAH, God tells Jews to be righteous and even to love the stranger in their midst, the founder of Christianity offered bland platitudes such as those in 2 Corinthians 13, "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast ..." Nevertheless, these platitudes have not prevented Christians from hating the strangers in their midst or from not even loving their own Christian neighbors as themselves. As a matter of fact, Christians have been taught to hate themselves because their founder told them that they were unworthy of God's love, and only would receive it if they nullified their own human decency and accepted the belief that they can do no good without believing that they need a dying god to save them. So why would they need commandments if they cannot really follow them? Don't forget that in Galatians 5:12, he told his gentile followers that if any Jew ever encouraged them to follow the commandments of Moses, that they were worthy of castration.
Contrast the New Testament platitudes with the commandments of real love and righteousness in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. And by the way, when
Christians DID pull something out of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, guess what? They pulled out the WORST commandments, not the noblest. I am not even talking about the middle Ages. I am talking about the 21st century. Check out Westboro Baptist Church at Godhatesfags.com and GOD HATES HARRY POTTER at http://www.godhatesgoths.com/godhatesharrypotter.html.
How then has the TORAH influenced society in general when in Europe, cock-fighting and bull-fighting are sports, and in America, the brutality of boxing is a sport? Why Christians have shown themselves to be no better than pagan Romans in the arena. Judaism does not tolerate bull-fighting or boxing.
The Commandments, even the so-called Ten Commandments, have not influenced society in general. People continue to engage in artistic representations and working on Saturday. And in terms of taking God's name in vain, it's Jesus' name that is most invoked, not Jehovah's.
At best, Christian exegesis on Christian scripture has influenced society to humiliate those who wish to divorce and to criminalize those who wish to
terminate pregnancy, or in some cases to force women to kill themselves for that purpose. Biblical scripture has justified for society the enslavement of blacks and deprivation of equal status for women. Only secularization has had the effect of equalizing all people under the law, not Biblical commandments.
On the other hand, the most ethnic of commandments and the least universal of them have indeed united the Jewish People and preserved our identity.
But it is the doing of the commandments that has done that, not the thinking about them. The doing then is what keeps us consciously Jewish. Why then would I not be interested in pursuing a study of our religion and engaging in the ethnic commandments?
Earlier you talked about my lack of belief. What has my belief or lack of it to do with my "acting Jewishly"? Learning about our religion and performing commandments such as participating in holidays does not require KAVANNAH. The rabbis determined thousands of years ago that a Jew need have no special feeling in his heart or thought or belief in his head in order for his performance of commandments to be valid. The doing is the IKKAR [main point] of the Jewish religion, not the "holy intent". To be sure, many Orthodox Jews perform their religious duties with no KAVANNAH most of the time. For example, if I am called upon to be part of a MINYAN, no one cares what I believe or disbelieve so long as I am present to initiate a congregation of ten Jews. I show my COMMITMENT to the Jewish People by my participation, not my belief. Only Christians are expected to show their commitment to their fellows and to their deity through belief. A Christian who walks into church with no belief is not welcome in church. A Jew is ALWAYS welcome in SHUL no matter what his own personal belief or lack thereof.
I have said above that the Jewish religion has kept us Jewish. You said that persecution and suffering have kept us Jewish. I disagree. In many cases, persecution so weakened us that whole communities disappeared. This happened mostly in Christendom since outside the influence of Christianity, Jews were left alone to live their lives. Even in Moslem countries, there was certain of amount of degradation and humiliation, not because we were Jews but because we were not Moslems. Yet even in the heart of Islam nothing like the Holocaust ever arose. Apparently Biblical commandments never influenced Christian society to treat people nicely; they didn't even influence Christians to treat each other nicely, let alone those whom they considered infidels.
Lastly, you ask, "But what makes a Jew a Jew? Is it not his or her belief in Hashem? Don't you believe that belief has to be contingent upon something?"
Belief may be contingent on something, on the believer's ability to believe in the face of contradictory evidence and/or in the face of logical deduction. Being Jewish is contingent on being born of a Jewish mother or converting to the religion of the Jews, nothing else. Whether a person is born Jewish or becomes Jewish by choice, no one can predict how his or her later life experiences will affect what he will LOGICALLY accept as literal reality and what he will accept as just folk history or legendary poetic tradition.
You also said, "To believe in a fellow Jew, skeptic or not, does not always I'm afraid, bear the fruit one may have hoped for."
Here I am not exactly sure what you mean. I never said that I believe in an individual Jew or group of Jews as anything other than a link to my Jewish community.
Often the religiously committed fellow Jews with whom I have come in contact have strengthened my own sense of Jewishness. I know that they are "religious", not by what they believe but by what they do as an religio-ethnic community. It is what they do that makes them ACT Jewish. I have no idea what they believe as individuals. For all I know, they may believe in nothing supernatural. But I don't care what they believe and they don't care what I believe.
Here are just three references out of many to back me up.
|
"For Judaism, deed is more important than creed:" - http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Rel232/JEWNOTES.htm
"On the other hand, if one is agnostic, that is, one is not sure what one believes about G-d, as long as one lives a Jewish life, as long as one observes the Mitzvoth, then belief is not important and that Jew has not separated him/herself from their faith."
http://talmidavshelaharon.blogspot.com/2008/02/14-5768-mitzvah-n-8.html
"Even without the belief, an enormous value remains in Judaism. (A traditional statement is: it is better to perform the mitzvoth without belief, than to believe without performing mitzvoth."
http://www.mljewish.org/cgi-bin/retrieve.cgi?VOLUME=3&NUMBER=80&FORMAT=html
|
Finally you wrote, "I believe you said those Committed Jews who move away from the Jewish community and The Torah, fade away."
Indeed I did say that.
Some several centuries before Jesus the Nazarene was born, Israel was under the domination of the Seleucid Greeks in Syria. At that time, many Jews in Israel decided that Greek culture was more important to them than their own Jewish culture. Many abandoned their Jewishness and became Hellenized.
There were Jews in Judea who protested the dejudaization of their country and when their protest became a threat to the Syrian Greeks, king Antiochus instituted a program of forced Hellenization upon the Jews in his domain. The TORAH was outlawed and paganism was forced upon the unwilling population.
Had this program succeeded, there might be no Jews today, at least not in the land that the gentiles call Palestine. However, as you know, a group of resistance fighters arose, known as Maccabees, and defeated the intentions of the Syrians, and so the Jewish People was saved from religious and ethnic extinction. The Maccabees became the first type of venerated martyrs by early Christians. This is ironic. Men and women who fought to keep the TORAH became the heroes of men and women who sought to abolish it, under the direction of their founder, the Apostate from Tarsus.
When you imply that I am only entitled to engage in any kind of Judaism if I have belief, you are almost echoing the words of the Apostate.
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter." - Romans 2:28,29
This was a man who did more to try to eradicate Jews and Judaism than anyone previous to him. He opened the door to others who came after him and also used his arguments to do away with Jews and replace us with another people. In fact, he called his followers the "Israel of God" in contradistinction to the real Israel.
I think that you may be saying that I am not a Jew inwardly because I don't have the right belief credentials. Therefore I am not entitled to act as one outwardly. But the outward acts are all that we can tell about a person. As you see, the disciples of the Apostate never accepted his identity of a Jew for themselves. They never had the KAVANNAH that he attributed to them so they were never able to participate in Jewishness. However even without belief I have that KAVANNAH to participate. I don't need to believe anything other than that I am Jewish and therefore entitled to participate in the heritage of my people whenever I choose.
Therefore, please allow me the right to be the Jewish APIKORES that I am and not the non-Jewish unbeliever that you say I may be. Allow me the right to get together with other Jews and do Jewish things.
From: "Jerald Gould"
To: kingsolnew@yahoo.com
Re: Rosh HaShannah studiesTuesday,
August 26, 2008 2:39 AM
Hello Shlomoh:
Thank you for the in-depth explanation and time you took to explain what being Jewish means to you. I suppose just being born to Jewish parents would be enough to qualify in the simplest terms . However I did say that I thought The Commandments given to Moses were first handed down to Jews as a form of unity, predicated on a belief in G-D Who gave us them, and in turn were supposed to be passed on to all people . Christianity was a term used for those who followed Christ, who in turn were guided by The Commandments. I do believe that the first followers of Jesus were Jewish and, to my understanding, were not told to not follow The Torah. Why would Jesus, who claimed he was the Son of G-D, disavow his Father? Circumcision was supposed to be a Covenant between Jews and G-D.Why would Jesus who was supposed to have been cicumcized himself scold his followers if they followed The Torah? Wouldn't this negate his own covenant with G-D? It all begins to take on a fairy-tale like dimension, don't you think? Also, the founder of Christianity told his followers to hate their fathers, mothers , brothers and sisters, and to follow him. What type of person would make such a demand when it was taught to respect one's father and mother? It boggles the mind!
But getting back to how one feels about being Jewish as you say does not depend upon whether he or she is ultra-orthodox, orthodox, conservative, or secular; - just a matter of being part of a group sharing in the customs and rituals. But where did these customs and rituals eminate from? That is the question! It came from deep Jewish roots with a code of morality as the basis of their brotherhood and sisterhood. I agree it's not how religious one is or not but the affinity for one another stemming from immeasurable persecution that has bonded Jews from time immemorial even to to present day antisemitism.
One should be allowed to follow one's own convictions, religious or not, providing it's not to anyone's detriment, and the right to associate with whom they feel would make their life more complete and enjoyable. So I say to you, follow your own dictates of what Jewishness means to you and the pleasure you derive, and in turn give to others.
Respectfully---Jerald.
From: "Shlomoh Sherman" <kingsolnew@yahoo.com>
To: "Jerald Gould"
Re: Rosh HaShannah studies
Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:28 PM
Hello Jerald
A few words about your recent response.
I think you misunderstood some points in my message.
When I speak about the founder of Christianity, I am NOT speaking about Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus had no need to found a new religion; certainly not a gentile religion which is alien to the Jewish world view and the Jewish understanding of God and history.
Jesus already had a religion, - the religion of Israel. And as a Galilean, he would be shocked that a gentile religion was founded in his name. In effect, the Jesus of Christianity is NOT the Jesus of Jewish history. I have stated many times before that the Galilean Jesus was called the Nazarene. He was the temporary leader of the sect known as Nazarenes. It is the Nazarenes against whom the founder of Christianity rails and curses as he curses Jewishness in general. Remember, the founder gives his so-called Jewish biography and ends by saying that he counts it all as shit, [skubalon], Philippians 3:8
Imagine using this word to describe circumcision, his Israelite descent, and the TORAH. HE is the founder of which I spoke, not Jesus. And that founder preached about a mythic divinity known as Christ Jesus, not Nazarene Jesus. So let me clear that up for you.
About Jesus telling his disciples to put him before their families; it is not unusual for a religious leader to do that - especially if he believes the world is coming to an end as Jesus apparently believed. If the world is coming to an end and you have a special mission to perform to help bring that end about, your family can only get in the way, and some of the disciples may have had families who did not agree with Jesus' message to the Jews.
From: "Zerabbi@aol.com"
To: kingsolnew@yahoo.com
Re: [exorthodoxjews] Rosh HaShannah studies
Tuesday, August 26, 2008 4:53 PM
Shlomoh, this is an excellent article. I dont doubt that with your atheism you are a better Jew then many Orthodox Jews.
This year for Yom Kippur I am going to try a Conservative shul, at least for a while.
I was told that up at B.J.s [Bnai Jeshurun], there is a woman rabbi who makes people cry. I hope to see this for myself.
Sorry that the people at L.S.S.[Lincoln Square Synagogue] turned out to be so cold. I think that all shuls are the same. The people of the W.S.I.S.
[West Side Institytional Synagogue] were probably no better.
Avi
From: "SuzanneU"
To: Jerald Gould, kingsolnew@yahoo.com
Re: Rosh HaShannah studies
Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:40 AM
Actually Jesus said in Matthew 5, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." and Christians did just that till about 325 AD when the Edict of Milan changed things.
Many Christians and most Messianic believers in Yeshua now endeavor to keep the commandments and as gentile Christians are learning that the Levitical Feasts are for all G-d's children, growing numbers of us are keeping the Feasts.
He [God] didn't negate His own covenant in any way. That was the "early church fathers" (I refer to them as stepfathers)
Also, to stand outside the synagogue just to be close to your people ... isn't that "being on the outside looking in"?
--Suzanne
From: kingsolnew@yahoo.com
To: Jerald Gould, SuzanneU
Re: Rosh HaShannah studies
Tuesday, August 26, 2008
Suzanne
I have looked at Matthew 5 and haven't seen any verse that says what you quote. The closest approximation are the following verses:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one YOD or one TARGA shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I am not sure that these words are the words of the historical Jesus. Perhaps they are, perhaps not. I have always sort of held that they are Matthew's refutation of the Apostate's anti-nomism, and an admonishment to Jewish Nazarenes not to give heed to one of the Jewish beliefs that when the messiah arrives, the laws of the TORAH will be done away with. This belief was probably a sectarian one held by some Jews and Matthew's sect did not subscribe to antinomism. On the other hand, antinomism may have affected the beliefs of some Jewish believers in Jesus since early on, the Nazarene sect fractured into many schisms, which weakened the remaining Jewish sects that continued to hold Jesus as the messiah.
All this is not relevant to gentiles who worship Jesus Christ. I am certain that for 2000 years, most Christians would not even be able to guess what "jot" or "tittle" even mean. The King James translators used these words to translate the Hebrew YOD, the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and TARGA, the Aramaic word for a diacritic which lets the reader of the TORAH know how to pronounce and SING the reading. The TARGA nowadays is used mostly for the reading of the HAFTARAH, not the TORAH.
I cannot address either the Edict of Milan or the Church Fathers here because they are beyond the scope of the discussion at hand - which centers on my right to participate in Jewishness, even in its religious forms.
As to gentiles who "keep the Feasts", I can't even begin to address this because I am not sure what that even means. I THINK that they are not keeping the feasts because they don't have the proper knowledge of HOW to keep the feasts. What I think they are doing is PLAY ACTING at keeping the feasts. They are ACTING like Jews without either the proper preparation or the credentials for the role.
The Christian scripture plainly forbids any association with Jewish practices. Perhaps that is why, after several centuries, when the Christian scriptures became universally known, Christian leadership finally outlawed the followers to "act Jewish".
It can't be plainer than in Galatians where the Apostate, in his usual vulgar, uncouth manner, insults both Jews, and gentiles who act like Jews.
Galatians 4
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
How can gentiles want to "keep the Feasts" when they read their own scriptures?
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Every time some of his gentiles want to act Jewish, he winds up cursing out the Jews in a fit of jealous rage.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
I think nonJews who try to act Jewish are wasting their time. They don't get credit in heaven for it like we Jews do :)
Lastly, thank you for returning me to my theme by mentioning the APIKORSIM who stand outside the synagogue and discuss the Jewish religion.
In a way, of course, it is being outside looking in. The people of whom I spoke lived thousands of years ago, in the pre-modern age when the religious world view of most people was that you were either in or out. This is what I say about Christianity. If you do not believe in the supernatural aspect of the religion, you are not welcome to participate in the worship with those inside the church. That is logical and understandable. If a person no longer believes in Christ and no longer believes in all the miraculous stories associated with Christ, how can he be a Christian? If he is not a Christian, of what use is he to the congregation which is worshipping Christ? None. Oh he may like the music and the pageant and all that, but the people inside no longer like him. After all, you were not born a Christian. There is no such thing. At best, you were born a gentile or a pagan. Then, after you had some understanding of the things your family subscribed to, maybe you decided to subscribe to them too. But in order to join your family and friends in the church, you had to do something, or say something, or believe something, or be washed in water, or whatever. Then, and only then, were you one of the congregation. If you later rejected all that, you were out, and you were not welcome to even look in.
I, on the other hand, am welcome to come inside and be part of the congregation regardless of what I believe in, or not. I was born Jewish and will always be Jewish no matter what I think or believe, or not. They don't care. They are happy to welcome me even with the knowledge that I don't believe as they do.
I suppose that the APIKORSIM of old could also have gone inside.
The APIKPORSIM had free will. They could have chosen any place as a hangout. They could have hung out at the local bar or poolroom, or at the local brothel, or in the park or local cafeteria. But they chose the vicinity of the synaggue. Isn't that interesting?
Where do Christian backsliders hang out? Hmmm. I wonder.
That the APIKORSIM remained outside was either their choice or the belief that they were no longer welcome to be inside. I don't have that low opinion of myself. I am, and will always be, perfectly welcome to be with the Jewish Community, and they know it. And I think that by now, even Jerald knows it :)
Had the classic APIKORSIM lived today, they would have had the benefit of the TALMUD to tell them that they were always welcome to be inside. And maybe, probably on the eve of YOM KIPPUR, they DID go inside where the leader of the prayers began the liturgy by saying, "By the authority of the Heavenly Court and the earthly court, we proclaim that it is permitted to pray with sinners."
Anything in Christianity even REMOTELY like that?
Thanks for your input.
From: "SuzanneU"
To: kingsolnew@yahoo.com
Cc: Jerald
Subject: Rosh HaShannah studies
Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:10 PM
Since Matthew quotes them as the words of Jesus,and since I was not there to be an eyewitnes; I believe that they are.
Shlomoh, Jesus never broke the Torah. He kept the commandments. People who came after Him and who claimed to be Christians taught that the Torah was done away with, but more and more Christians today know that this is not so because more and more of us are studying the Bible from Genesis through Revelation.
Many do not. However there is a ministry -- google Monte Judah if you are interested --who teaches it right.
Judah has a CD calld Jots and Tittles and he explains it quite well.
I never questioned your right to participate. I just felt from what you are saying that you are on the outside looking in.
Actually many of us do have the proper knowledge now. It is easy for us to get because we can go to the internet and find out from Jewish sources.
No. If you read Lev 23, they are the Feasts of the L-rd. Nobody is acting Jewish. We are being obedient children of the Most High G-d.
Edict of Milan, 325 AD.
Most people don't realize that Galatians was written to GENTILE believers in Galatia. Not Jewish believers.
Yes, there were pagan festivals held at various seasons.
As I said we are being obedient.
G-d is no respecter of persons. He loves all His children equally.
Shlomoh, MANY people worship in Christian churches that do not believe in the supernatural aspect of religion! They are not forced out. G-d's House is a House of Prayer for all people
He isn't really, but no minister I know would tell a person to leave because of that because we believe "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of G-d." Romans 10:17
Well, you see, we don't look at it as whether we can use people or not. Maybe if we did, that would be true.
Not so at all! My friend and prayer partner, Mary Ann, is a pastor in a small Christian church in town. Her husband is a-religious, but he attends services and he loves to participate in the men's group. Everybody likes him! And in the church I attend we have people who don't believe in Jesus yet they attend for the reason that they believe it is the right thing to do and this is a source of community for them. They, too, are welcome
Well actually, my parents were Roman Catholic, so at certain times Catholic kids have their religious instruction, then have their first confession, first communion then around age 12 or 13 they are confirmed. To most Catholic kids it is just a formality. What you pointed out is true in non-Catholic denominations though. Children of Catholic, Methodist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presby parents are baptized a few weeks after birth. Denominations such as Baptist, Assemblies of God etc require a profession of faith and immersion. To profess faith a person has to be of an age that they understand the concept of sin, take responsibility for committing sins and repent and believe that Jesus died for our sins. THEN and only then are they immersed.
Not so at all. We don't shun like the Amish do.
Funny you should ask because a lot of them hang out in churches on Sunday. That they also hang out other places during the week is to their discredit, not their church's discredit.
Then why don't you go hang out INSIDE the synagogue instead of being on the outside looking in?
I don't believe that people in the days before the Talmud was written didn't know that they were welcome to be inside. G-d made it plain in the Torah that the backslider is always welcome back. Of course all of us who sin are supposed to repent. The problem is that a lot of people just love their sin more than they love G-d, and so they won't "darken the door of a church or synagogue."
Yes. After all, we are supposed to be like Jesus. Rev 22:17 says "Whosoever will may come..."
From: "Shlomoh Sherman" <kingsolnew@yahoo.com>
To: "SuzanneU"
Cc: "Jerald Gould"
ROSH HASHANNAH Sudies
Sunday, August 31, 2008 1:09 PM
--- On Thu, 8/28/08, SuzanneU wrote:
Hi.
I will try to answer in purple so it is easy for you to read.
SUZ: Since Matthew quotes them as the words of Jesus,and since I was not there to be an eyewitnes; I believe that they are.
SHLO: What I mean is - why would Jesus have to go out of his way to tell a Jewish audience that he is not out to do away with the TORAH? I only
supposed this was Matthew's way of refuting Paul.
SUZ: Shlomoh, Jesus never broke the Torah. He kept the commandments. People who came after Him and who claimed to be Christians taught that the Torah was done away with, but more and more Christians today know that this is not so because more and more of us are studying the Bible from Genesis through Revelation.
SHLO: I agree that Jesus kept the TORAH but that's no surprise. He was a Jew. Why wouldn't he keep the TORAH? What I don't get is gentiles keeping the TORAH, especially in the light of the admonitions of Paul that they should NOT keep it. There is absolutely no reason for gentiles to even try to keep it. The TORAAH was not given to gentiles. It was given to Jews. I can undewrstand a gentile wanting to be Jewish and then keeping TORAH once he becomes a Jew. There have been at times during the history of Christianity when certain sects did begin to observe Jewish practices. This religious phenomenon is called Christian Judaizing. It's what happened in Galatia and Corinth. But usually when these sects did that, they wound up gravitating so far in Jewishness that they finally abandoned Christianity and converted to Judaism. This is probably one of the reasons that the Inquisition came into being - to prevent the further spread of Judaization.
SUZ: Many [gentiles] do not [know details about Judaism]. However there is a ministry -- google Monte Judah if you are interested --who teaches it right. Judah has a CD calld Jots and Tittles and he explains it quite well.
SHLO: I believe that I have heard of that website from another person at one time. I am not sure of what Judah's ultimate objective is or why he does this. I have not been to his website. he may simply be catering to Hebrew-Christians who want to know Pharisaic Jewish practice, All this Christian-Jewish practice is very dissonant to me. But what the heck. It's America, right? We are all free to worship how we want. In fact, since the Conservatives took over, hasn't it become the law of the land? :)
SUZ: I never questioned your right to participate. I just felt from what you are saying that you are on the outside looking in.
SHLO: You have constanly mis-read and mis-quoted me. When did I say that *I* was on the outside, looking in? NEVER. What I said was that the classical APIKORSIM used to hang out on the back steps of the synagogue or the YESHIVAH. You somehow translated that into ME being on the outside looking in.
SUZ: Actually many of us do have the proper knowledge now. It is easy for us to get the knowledge because we can go to the internet and find out from Jewish sources.
If you read Lev 23, they are the Feasts of the L-rd. Nobody is acting Jewish. We are being obedient children of the Most High G-d.
Edict of Milan, 325 AD.
SHLO: You keep mentioning that Edict. Well look, when Christianity finally crystalized into the Roman Catholic Church, the leaders were able to
legally enact the sentiments of Paul. Paul apparently wanted his gentiles to call themselves Israelites without doing the work that makes Israelites Israelites. The official edicts furthered that sentiment to stop Christians from even thinking of themselves as Jews. This philosophy does not stem from any Catholic edicts. It stems from basic Christian scriptual theology.
SUZ: Most people don't realize that Galatians was written to GENTILE believers in Galatia. Not Jewish believers.
SHLO: Why not? It's obvious that, with the possible exception of his epistle to the church at Rome, Paul only addressed gentiles.
SUZ: Yes, there were pagan festivals held at various seasons.
SHLO: Paul's admonition to the Galatians are about JEWISH festivals.
SUZ: G-d is no respecter of persons. He loves all His children equally.
SHLO: Of course. Who says different? It's just that, according to the Jewish religion, He assigns different tasks to Jews and gentiles.
SUZ: Shlomoh, MANY people worship in Christian churches that do not believe in the supernatural aspect of religion! They are not forced out. G-d's House is a House of Prayer for all people.
He isn't really, but no minister I know would tell a person to leave because of that because we believe "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of G-d." Romans 10:17
Well, you see, we don't look at it as whether we can use people or not. Maybe if we did, that would be true.
Not so at all! My friend and prayer partner, Mary Ann, is a pastor in a small Christian church in town. Her husband is a-religious, but he attends services and he loves to participate in the men's group. Everybody likes him! And in the church I attend we have people who don't believe in Jesus yet they attend for the reason that they believe it is the right thing to do and this is a source of community for them. They, too, are welcome
SHLO: Well that's good news to me. It shows that so-called religious people finally are understanding that fellowship transcends belief,
SUZ: Well actually, my parents were Roman Catholic, so at certain times Catholic kids have their religious instruction, then have their first confession, first communion then around age 12 or 13 they are confirmed. To most Catholic kids it is just a formality. What you pointed out is true in non-Catholic denominations though. Children of Catholic, Methodist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presby parents are baptized a few weeks after birth. Denominations such as Baptist, Assemblies of God etc require a profession of faith and immersion. To profess faith a person has to be of an age that they understand the concept of sin, take responsibility for committing sins and repent and believe that Jesus died for our sins. THEN and only then are they immersed.
SHLO: I pretty much surmised all that. But bottom line is that Jews are born; Christians are not. They have to become Christian. Well that's the way Paul set it up. If Peter had had his way, all of you would be Jewish now :)
SUZ: We don't shun like the Amish do.
SHLO: Yes, I know that some people shun. That's the word I was looking for. I'm not surprised that a sect like Amish do that. Chassidim don't shun either.
SUZ: Then why don't you go hang out INSIDE the synagogue instead of being on the outside looking in?
SHLO: I really don't understand where you are coming from with this stuf unless you either did not read me carefully or chose to misinterpret me.
SUZ: I don't believe that people in the days before the Talmud was written didn't know that they were welcome to be inside. G-d made it plain in the Torah that the backslider is always welcome back. Of course all of us who sin are supposed to repent. The problem is that a lot of people just love their sin more than they love G-d, and so they won't "darken the door of a church or synagogue."
SHLO: I don't know what people did befofre the WRITTEN TALMUD became universally known. No one really does. Jewish religious practices and attitudes pre-second Temple are obscured, and we can only guess, based on what is written in the Bible and whatever archeology tells us, and so far archeology has not told us very much. What we do know is that there was no real Bible before the third century CE. There were various versions of religious books floating around but no real canon.
Both Jesus and Paul seem to be quoting verses from scpture which we don't find anywhere in the Bible - but I think that they probably were using different versions of the scriptures from the canon that we use today.
SUZ: After all, we are supposed to be like Jesus. Rev 22:17 says "Whosoever will may come..."
SHLO: How are you are supposed to be like Jesus?